GoodWordEditing.com - Latest Comments in Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

jp — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:16:04 -0000

Survival of the fittest may be the law of nature, but it's not the law of God. You CAN have both, no? The law of the flesh, and the law of the Spirit.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Marcus — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:52:41 -0000

RLP, thanks for that.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

real live preacher — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:56:15 -0000

I must run in different circles because this issue hasn't been on my radar in a long time. I think it is good to distinguish between evolution, the current best scientific theory about how things came to be, and natural selection, which is an ongoing process which, while it can't be proven the way you can prove the rate a ball drops, does seem to be apparent since we see it happening all around us. That's how we've gotten antibiotic resistant bacteria.

What's often not said is that evolution offers NO explanation of how life began. None. And while some evolutionists claim the process is random, that's really not important either. The truth is, natural selection, while brutal, seems to be God's way. As such, speaking against it is like speaking against a mountain. It just is. And because it is, it is true. And if it is true and we believe in God, then it is God's truth.

And if natural selection is happening (and it is) then evolution is simply a larger version of that happening on a grand scale. I think it is beautiful in a hard way, like the way galaxies are born and the way stars die. All things have their time. All things are born in His love but also born to struggle in this life. It all seems to make sense to me.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Joffan — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:43:53 -0000

What's next for the human race - if we survive the next fifty years, say - might be more and more in our own hands. We've already taken on huge parts of it by enabling the survival of children that would "naturally" have died, and expanding the world's population far beyond any "natural" limits (although hopefully we've seen the last doubling). "What's next" is a big question, with no fixed answer.

On self-awareness - perhaps that was the wrong term, and I'm sure you're right Marcus that it is not an "on-off" phenomenon. But still I think there must have been a qualitative shift sometime.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Sam Van Eman — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:15:36 -0000

Maybe a friendly version of the liquid metal guy from Terminator II. How cool would THAT be?

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

David Rupert — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:55:38 -0000

And think about this. If "survival of the fittest" is the law of nature, what's next for the human race? What will we evolve into?

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Marcus — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:27:23 -0000

Joffan, great point that we ARE primates. And the issue of self-awareness is interesting. I've read popular science pieces (in MIT's Tech Review, I think) summarizing research about this. Turns our that chimps and other primates have a surprisingly high level of self-awareness.

Put them to sleep, draw on their forehead with a marker, then show them a mirror and they will try to rub the mark from their head. They know the chimp in the mirror as themselves. Self-awareness.

Dolphins have it too, I've heard. I'm guessing there are levels of self-awareness, but still. We're hardly the only species that has it.

All of this should end with the caveat that I'm no scientist.

And another caveat for L.L. When I say I love sausage, I really mean it. I've been known to drive two hours for good sausage.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

L.L. Barkat — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:51:25 -0000

I like meat too. : ) Makes it an extra challenge to be a vegetarian. And, yes, Marcus... sausage is one of my favorite things.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Joffan — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:23:08 -0000

The interesting aspects of Genesis are all in metaphor and interpretation. The major problem with taking literally the six-day creation with pre-existing species is the fact that it conflicts so strongly with the evidence of ancient universe and long evolutionary history that is around us and within us. Taking the literal route makes God into a deceiver.

For clarification on one point: we humans are in fact primates, and under reasonable biological schemes, we're apes.

It's fascinating to consider the point where the humans species became self-aware, for there is a true miracle. That is a point where I see the divine. And it would likely be a very few, maybe brothers and sisters in a bright family, that cooked up speech and story-telling and songs.

There is Adam - surrounded by those who are not quite aware yet, who will carry the species forward with his slightly less capable cousins, and bring it to the full light of humanity. Ready to eat from the tree of knowledge, with fruit both good and evil.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

jp — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:31:50 -0000

Dear David:

By the same token, I'll use your words here, "If God is who he says He is (powerful, creative, in control), then why..." can't he allow things to evolve and be the Agent of that change. You have to allow for that, no?

Just checking.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Heather — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:01:35 -0000

Karen--that's exactly what I'm getting at. Christianity too often looks more Platonic--focusing on the spiritual to the neglect of the physical. When God, no matter how He created it exactly, declared the world (and everything in it) good, that meant in every way possible--spiritual and physical. The fall is an active destruction against that, and the second Adam (Christ) is an active redemption against that. So at the resurrection, when we are all physically raised (like Jesus--see 1 Corinthians 15 re: the true nature of our hope), it will be to a physical eternal life. No death in any form.
I do want to reiterate, though, that I don't believe the Genesis account is concerned as much with the how as with the fact that God is Creator (and Sustainer) of all Life, and because of that He's sovereign over it, and that man is pre-eminent in creation (which also gives us the responsibility of caring for creation).
A couple of things that strike me about evolutionists and creationists:
--Evolution arose because of questions in the Modern period (I believe that the philosophy of a culture precedes the science of it--c.f. C.S. Lewis' The Discarded Image)
--Creationists claim that God created the world and that man was placed here by God, yet we're often at fault for irresponsibility of earth's resources. Evolutionists claim that we evolved through survival of the fittest--which I'd then assume gives us the right to use the resources as we feel like because, after all, we fought to get here, we're the fittest and we're surviving--yet they're often the "liberals" (notice my use of quotes, please) that fight for the environment.
Of course, nothings that simple, and I say that a bit tongue-in-cheek using sweeping generalizations.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Marcus — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:49:34 -0000

I'm with you on that, David. Sorry L.L. I just love meat too much to be a vegetarian. Mmmm. Sausage.

To my credit I really like fruits, vegetables, grains, and dairy products too.

Basically, I just like food. Food that moos as well as food that makes amber waves across our Great American plains.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

David Rupert — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:24:11 -0000

I will happily eat my steak, one of the 'benefits' of my fallen condition!

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

L.L. Barkat — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:38:16 -0000

David, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned they were vegetarians (kind of a nice tangent). I'm busy getting a little flack for an article over at Today's Christian Woman, because I mentioned that Adam and Eve had a vegetable-based diet.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2008/julau...

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

David Rupert — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:47:31 -0000

Marcus, you said to Heather that you hadn't heard about the argument of "death not coming before the fall."

The fall of Adam brought death, not just to man, but to all of creation. Romans 8 says that Creation groans and "eagerly awaits the revelation of God's children."

Before the fall, Adam and Eve would have lived forever. They were vegetarians! That's why Christ, as Heather states, came. He came to take us away from the penalty, from the stench of death. Thats why in eternity, there will be no more death -- it will be Eden again.

Morphing evolution with creationism is tough to do -- not just explaining away Genesis -- but figuring out what do with Jesus' sacrifice. Without the resurrection...and our resurrection into new life, it would have been in vain. And if it was in vain, then what in the world are we doing with this crazy faith?

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Sam — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:46:17 -0000

Marcus,
I'm with you here depite the risk where I worship.
I put it this way to describe the relationship.
What if God is the painter? Evolution God's paintbrush and all God's creation his painting?
-Sam

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

David Rupert — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:12:30 -0000

I guess I too have a hint of sadness when I see doubt creep in to our dialogue. If God is who he says He is (powerful, creative, in control), then why is Creation not something he can do? And the 'science' is far from conclusive.

To believe in anything but Creation, is to tell God that he's just not able, and maybe, as J.B. Phillips put it, "Your God is too small."

If you don't believe in creation, then just for a minute, think about this: "Where does space end" and then "When did time begin and when does it end." If you're honest, those three questions will short-circuit your brain, unless God enters the conversation. Then it becomes totally rational.

I never want to limit what God can do based on my logic, my intelligence or my research. that's the power of the unchained life!

David
www.redletterbelievers.blogspot.com

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Karen — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:56:25 -0000

Interesting, Heather. The questions I come up with in relation to those concepts are, "How bad, then, was the fall? What was so terrible about God's curse? Was it physical, or purely spiritual? In truth, if death and destruction and survival against overwhelming odds was the norm, then how is that any better than what we have now? What, exactly, are we rescued/redeemed from? Will there be death when the earth is made clean again? If we're in better physical shape now than we were at our creation, then has the curse really harmed us?"

It's not as though I haven't come to my own answers in regards to this. As I said, I lean toward six days, myself... even as I admit I really can't define what God did or how He did it. I don't know enough. It seems to me that we're worse off physically, spiritually, and mentally than we were in this perfect beginning of humanity. In any case, these are questions we have to process, at least a little, because they affect how we see God, and what we think He calls good.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

spaghettipie — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:48:24 -0000

Marcus, I think your comment on the word "theory" expresses my point exactly. You honed in on the implications of using that word, when I was trying to highlight the fact that we all bring different definitions to these same words (evolution, creation, Darwinism, theory . . .) to the table and that makes the conversation confusing. :)

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

jp — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:55:54 -0000

A book, The Science of God, does an interesting job of reconciling faith and science. The very short version...at some point God takes the evolving "ape-man" and gives him a soul. This would be Adam. OK, this is SO reductive to the entire book, but read it, and at least be open to the fact that God is intelligent and has a hand in things of this world. The coolest thing about the book is the idea of the expanding universe and time, as associated with the various ages. Time (as Einstein proved) is malleable, and it stretches out according to his very famous formula. E=(delta)mc(squared)

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Heather — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:51:06 -0000

I think the fall led to all types of death--physical, emotional, relational, etc. Death is contrary to creation and re-creation and redemption and everything that God is up to. That's why we have a "second life," as my niece calls it--the resurrection of the earth where there will be no more tears, death, pain, etc. Everything's restored to how God intended it to be. Jesus' resurrection on the cross was not a onetime event. He's the firstfruit, and we will follow him physically in that resurrection.
Saying that doesn't mean that I take the Genesis account to be intended as scientific. I believe it's intended as the beginning of the story, as great myths and stories and legends, etc. And, like any good story, the end recapitulates the beginning in some way. In the last chapters of Revelation, we see re-creation and even a forward progress from Genesis, although based on Genesis, if that makes any sense. So, yes, I believe theology and literary-ness to be intertwined here. God's the master story teller. But I don't believe death, any type including physical, to be a part of his plan. In fact, it really irritates me when people call death a natural part of life. No, actually, it's not. It was never meant to be. It came as an effect of sin. All creation groans from this death-ness and destruction.
Sorry. There I go again.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Marcus — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:12:36 -0000

Heather, I had not heard that argument before about evolution requiring death before the fall. So you think the fall led to physical death specifically? You weren't too Genesis-y. It's a good book and always worth thinking about.

LL, about the apes. I've been thinking about it, and I wonder if our vision of the Imago Dei isn't troubled by the thought of us being genetically connected to apes.

Monica, I'm middle born too! Yea! Go us. You are absolutely right about my fear. I hope you don't think I'm crazy. I'm not. But neither are you.

Sam Van Eman, you make me laugh. I wasn't thinking of this as an entrance, but I guess it was. You raise an important issue (as did Tina) in thinking about Moses' role (or a similar person) in the authorship of Genesis. Given what others were saying at the time, Genesis was ground breaking in its picture of God and creation. So why do we get stuck on 6 days?

Christa, technically evolution isn't about us evolving from apes at all, I think. At best, humans and primates have a common ancestor. Still I was very surprised to see the discussion go there so quickly.

spaghettipie, the word theory is tricky. What scientists mean by theory is quite different than what the word means in common usage. It has to do with peer review and something worthy of building a hypothesis on.

I'm with you 100% on the dimensions argument. I highly recommend people try to read Brian Greene's Fabric of the Cosmos. Or else watch the PBS video series on The Elegant Universe. (Or read it.)

Creation theory is a funny phrase. For me, its like we're taking apples from one basket of knowing and oranges from another basket of knowing and arguing over whether all fruit is apples or oranges. Maybe that makes no sense.

mch3snut, it's always good to hear from you here. You're as spunky as ever! I think you're onto something when you reduce the problem to this: We're in danger of robbing a potentially profound story of its message.

Of course, that's been the problem for awhile. We can't agree on the details of that message--and we assume our disagreements are incompatible. Some are, naturally. But others maybe not.

Ted, thanks for making that point. I should have discussed that earlier, but I hadn't gotten around to it until this comment. I wanted to see where it led. Again, I was very surprised to hear that come up.

And I like what you say that science itself is ever evolving. That's what peer review is all about.

B. Currant, thanks!

Everyone, feel free to keep commenting. I'll pop in and out, without addressing each commenter from this point on.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

Ted Gossard — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:23:07 -0000

Marcus,
Good post and interesting thread.

I think evolutionists would say we didn't come strictly speaking from apes, but that apes and us came from the same ancestor.

I agree with the basics of what you say, though I am not sure I embrace it for myself, nor do I care much. I think it's a tragedy that young people lose their faith at the university, when they're taught a view which shatters what they were taught about creation from Genesis. As if the Bible stands or falls on such a view. Completely absurd I'm sad to say, I think!

I don't care how God created all things. I believe the Bible is true, and what we can learn from science is true as well. I say go ahead and put some weight on science, but let's remember too, that science itself is ever evolving as to its theories from its continued endeavor.

Just my two cents on this, where I'm at now.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

mch3snut — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:58:21 -0000

I should be more clear, there are more interpretations of the Adam and Eve myth that are great/important, too. I just find the literal interpretation to be factually and poetically lacking.

Anyway I'm fine with creationists so long as they stick to releasing ridiculous children's literature that I can appreciate on ironic levels (nota bene: I was given such a book as a gift which provided 32-illustrated pages of giggles). They're on the losing end of history and it's just a matter of time before they're cast in with the flat-earthers of centuries past.

Re: Out of the Closet - I Believe in Evolution

mch3snut — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:40:35 -0000

I just know I'm about to get into a multi-paragraph fugue about this, but here goes nothing.

I think it's troublesome that so many people of faith find it difficult, if not impossible to reconcile the observable universe with scripture. As one of little faith myself, I guess I don't really identify with the mindset that opts to ignore evidence that runs counter to orthodoxy. I understand the impulse if one ascribes to a particularly stark fundamentalist interpretation of scripture, but despite being one of little faith, it has major flaws in my eyes.

It takes away the power of the myth of the creation story. The story of the Garden of Eden, Adam, Eve, temptation, etc are all more powerful to me as metaphor describing the limits of humanity, that what separates us from god is wanting. Holding firm to the belief that it is a journalistic, observed account of the beginning of life is at once juvenile and simplistic as it is debasing, and robs a potentially profound story of its message.

In a way, creationism pigeonholes god into something that it's not, which is limited -- to a tidy, easy-to-digest temporal narrative in which the world is created in a single week. Nothing about life, god, or humanity is illuminated in this story. All it says is "God is magic!" which, you know, is just so damn spiritually unfulfilling and a large part of the reason why I left the church and joined those crazy Unitarians.