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This is not to say that either are not an honest attempt to wrestle through issues. The bottom fell out of all of our answers with wars, genocide, cancer, embezzlement. Progress? we asked. How are we any better? Maybe Hegel wasn't so right about it.
This is a position Christianity has held--we can't make things better on our own. It requires God's redemption. But without an understanding of God's redemption, we're left with relativism when progress failed.
And I'll say this, too--I don't think everything about relativism is wrong.
I agree with your last statement that relativism is not always wrong. Being associated with the Emergent Church undoubtedly gets you tangled up in the term relativism.
I also agree that without God's redemption we are in a cosmic morass of everything goes and nothing answers the questions we have.
Good Post Mark!
Carl, thanks for the kind words! I'm not sure if I count as emergent, but I'm definitely not a supporter of relativism.
L.L., oh dear. Have I fallen into the trap of calling someone ridiculous? I hope I haven't, but I wrote this pretty quickly. I wouldn't consider a weak strawman argument to be ridiculous, just weak. Perhaps the wrestling metaphor was too strong? I couldn't resist.
1. Every serious chaplain knows how to handle patients like this. He is angry and out of control. A good chaplain would not sit there and feed anyone like this a set of answers or non-answers. He or she would take a lot of time to listen to what the person is saying. If the person was enraged by the chaplain's very presence, he or she would leave immediately.
2. Most serious chaplains do have a strong Christian faith and stand ready to offer forgiveness by faith in Christ and pray with people who ask for it. Christian denominations share this truth. It's a question of whether or not they push it. That said, there are some pretty inept chaplains out there. I know, my wife has worked with them.
Regarding relativism. Hmm, I guess I would say this is not an either or situation. You're either for relativism or not. Some things are relevant even for the staunchest fundamentalist. The way the Holy Spirit works with people for example, in ways relative to their personality.
We all believe in some level of relativism. I guess the question is, what does it look like when you line up your absolutes? Can you write down our absolute truths and live with those that may have relative applications.
If we admit that we all have both, then we are listening to each other and discussing things. Which is what would have been nice in this clip, though the man in bed wouldn't allow it.
3. In an entire career, you might get someone like this a handful of times. On the other hand, thousands of times you'd be there at just the right time and able to offer a listening ear
I think it's naive to offer relativism to anyone who's asking serious questions expecting meaningful answers.
The human desire for something greater than ourselves seems unlikely to be satisfied by guiding someone to subjective answers. That should be obvious even to a relativist.
Would you mind emailing me to let me know more what you are thinking of on that? Thank you!
I am engaged in the emergent church and that is what gets bantered around a lot.
I grew up in a fundamental church, in a community that was certain it knew God because they were on the right side of beliefs about Jesus -- and the motivation to love God was based on fear. If you are afraid enough of God and going to hell then somehow that will motivate you to live a holy life that is somehow pleasing to God. I remember being around five years old thinking, "this is insanity... fear is horrible motivator for both the receiving of love and the finding of acceptance.
Exactly what did Jesus came to reveal to us about the heart of God? Ultimately what produces the kind of transformation in human hearts that all of us are so thirsty for? What was Jesus life and mission really about? And how does that matter for today, for now?
These are just some questions I'm reflecting on.
I can certainly appreciate how the imbalance in your early church experience would lead you to recoil at mentions of hell. It should not be our main motivation for following God.
For a dying man, though, hell is a real issue; if hell is real, that is, or even if he was worried about hell being real. Why would it be wrong for him to consider the very personal possibility that he might soon be entering eternal punishment? If fear is not the greatest motivator for a life of loving God, it can at least be something that drives us to ask questions. Which is exactly what he did.
Exactly what did Jesus came to reveal to us about the heart of God? Ultimately what produces the kind of transformation in human hearts that all of us are so thirsty for? What was Jesus life and mission really about? And how does that matter for today, for now?
I won't try to answer "exactly," and I know you didn't really intend someone to do that here. But it's quite clear that Jesus came to reveal the kingdom of God, granted on the basis of repentance and faith. It's God's Holy Spirit who produces transformation in our lives, but there are many doorways by which people walk toward God, one of them being fear of what happens otherwise.
Jesus clearly believes in a real hell--which matters for yesterday, today, and all time. Most of the Bible's references to hell come straight from his mouth. He used it as warning, as a motivation to repent (see the examples at http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bib...).
We dare not make Jesus into just a preacher of comfortable love. That's not who he was.
real live preacher, thanks for sharing your personal experience. It had not occurred to me that the character herself was the main plausibility issue. It is especially interesting to me that you blame the man in the bed for refusing discussion. In some ways, that makes me happy. I hate the idea that I have to be a raving jerk in order to support absolute truth.
econ grad student, you're right of course. I was prodding you and Tom Gilson a bit. In hindsight, that wasn't very fair of me, since I don't know you well. But I meant it as a way to engage discussion not as an attack. I'm not sure we can truly satisfy the human desire for something greater than ourselves--at least not in this life. I believe in absolute truth and real answers, but any answers I present to others are going to be necessarily subjective--even if those answers are supported by history, scholarship, and 20 centuries of faith.
Tom, I'll be sure to email you. I take the weekend off of blogging as much as I can. And I should have clarified that I have a tendency to be patronizing myself. It's a beef I have with the man in the mirror as much as fellow Christians.
Carl, I understood what you mean. I have a lot of affinity with Emerging folks as well. As someone in an ecumenical organization, I have to be careful about full out endorsements of particular brands of Christianity.
Paul, I grew up in similar churches. My wife remembers her baptism with extreme anger because of the ridiculous guilt and fear tactics (along with sleep deprivation) that drove her to finally walk down. Much more powerful was the worship drama experience when her faith became real. As for your question what was Jesus life and mission really about... that's worth taking to the community.
Tom, thanks for reminding us of the context of this clip. The man was scared of hell specifically. While fear may drive people to ask questions, I don' t think we should use it to do drive people.
On the other hand, I'm a big fan of the horror genre. I just like to be scared and creeped out. And I like to write scary stories--and many of them raise questions exactly in the way you are suggesting.
Love isn't fuzzy bunnies and colorful butterflies and peppy Beatles tunes. (Though I like the Beatles.) In fact, the best picture of love that I've seen in awhile is Edward Bear.
Of course, the love of Jesus was hardest for the religious establishment. That's us. God help us take down our money tables and put down our stones.
I don't mean that insultingly to the physicists. We work first within our beliefs (not ever completely objectively), whether it's with art, science, etc. The fact that they pursued quantum physics and time relativity means something in their belief system said this might work.
Maybe to have bias is human.
And if we ignore our bias, we err.
I just wanted to clarify my point.
I don't believe we can satisfy the human desire for something greater but I believe we can present someone greater.
Absolute certainty of the type that satisfies doesn't come all at once. At least it didn't happen that way for me.
I don't see relativists as naive. They are thoughtful and have a distinctly different paradigm of Christianity, Scripture, God, history, myth, truth, orthodoxy and life in general than "traditional" Christianity. I'm thinking that the jury is still our on what is "emerging."